each day our lives are like
the ripples made when a stone
is tossed into a quiet pond
many stones many ripples
each life expanding out in concentric rings
rings merging into rings
rippling small waves through one another
like so much moving water
the rings defy the downward motion of water
they go horizontal
they roll out and collide with other rings
and the rings bob on the surface
dancing and intersecting
become momentarily one
with a whole series of concentric rings
one following the other
gyrating and jerking on the surface
rings which seek the shore
and then seek even more
the placid state of certainty
where only the faint memory of expanding rings
kiss against the stones
You can delete this iwt, but are you again suggesting ...humans must take the
ReplyDeleteMass--ingestthe actual bread from the priest and drink wine from his cup-- or we're condemned? What if...disease is a problem (as it is around LA)?? Catholic leadership--and the WASP churches who insist on communion-- need to re-think the Mass and "eucharist" IMO. So--when they get rid of the Mass-requirement I might convert. :|
nothing is required
ReplyDeletein the RCC
it is all a matter of free-will
there is no condemnation
only a gentle challenge
from which we all seem to cower
and fail
no wonder we have songs of lament
adn desperation
jh
There's no machiavellian Christ, JH--the error of the macho catholic (and cowboy baptist for tha matter).
ReplyDeletethe only macho catholics i know are the hard core missionary men and women who devote their lives to healing and educating and befriending the needy in the world...those people really walk the talk...i'm a mere derelict by comparison
ReplyDeletei watched a program last night for awhile just out of curiosity i watched a documentary/reality TV thing about some gold mining guys in alaska putting it all on the line with their big dredging and hauling machines big mofos with tatoos who came around to a crisis and met it by using the rhetoric of jesus god who brought them there and the greatest country in the world...if these guys could get together like that i thought well shit anything's posssible....they even blessed the possibility of tearing up some virgin territory as if god led them to do it
they prayed they took off their helmets held them high and made of tough alsaka guy commitment to let jesus and america and the free pursuit of ridiculous wealth be their doctrines of faith
i was so amused
not quite edified
but amused
those guys should not tear up virgin country in alaska however
i am against that
stupid assholes
that's my judgement
machiavelli invokes the words of christ more than once
he must've thought them valid for something
jh
machiavelli invokes the words of christ more than once
ReplyDeletehe must've thought them valid for something
For creating hombres malos, macho men--Lucky Lucianos, Himmlers, Vince Lombardis for Jeebus..le croix et l'épée!! .....j-k.
Around here tho, the RC and wasp private schools are all about the athletics. No Flannery O'Connors thats for shure
somehow i can't believe the world is as demented and fearworthy as you portray
ReplyDeletebut then
what do i know
jh
Demented, yes, but not about fearworthiness--t about awareness of the Orwellian state (however trite that sounds). Besides, you're in..Minnesota, or Montana wilds or something. Eastsahd LA a long ways away. Myabe the next time the LASD conduct a GPS-guided raid on some cartel homies a few blocks away--tank, 'copters, dozens of robo-cops in Kevlar with uzis--I'll videotape it and send to you. A men.
ReplyDeleteImagine superior editing.
ReplyDeleteOr imagine like a big mex druglord, "Shorty" somethin' hangin' down the street with one of his chicas (she just gave birth in a P-dale hospital). Or don't. I live among gangs (even ones online)
there's gangs in the RC world too
ReplyDeletei prefer the dictates of coyote
i have no illusions about the harsshness
of urban america
i am grateful not to live there
i hear the city ringing
jh
Hi J
ReplyDeleteDid you ever read fr greg boyle's book: Tattoos on the Heart? He lives in gang territory and seeks to provide an alternative to gangs. I thought it was an amazing book.
S
nothing is required
ReplyDeletein the RCC
it is all a matter of free-will
there is no condemnation
only a gentle challenge
i hope this is true
these words offer hope
that maybe there is a way
to get past the place where
i am stuck right now
i think it takes a person of strong faith
perhaps stronger than i have right now
to interpret the words
"mortal sin"
as only a gentle challenge
"mortal sins"
ReplyDeleteThat's what's cool about catholic tradition, isn't it Dr. S. Via a sufficient number of Masses, pardons, or purgatory, mortal sins can be....mostly washed away (even the priest's!). The mobster who confesses, attends Mass, donates to the Padre's orphanage, etc the last few weeks of his life is good to go. A somewhat similar thing goes down in protestant churches, isn't it--just w/o all the rituals (ie heap the shekels on the plate, hearty handshake with Father Billy Bob, pancake breakfast etc). For that matter, the tale of the Magdalena offers even shady ladies some hope (seems somewhat relevant here in the Magdalena-land of SoCal).
So, Id say don't worry. :]
It seems to me that there's a tremendous amount of speculation as to the nature of the after-life, beginning with the notion that it exists at all. Scripture says little, and when it does speak, it does so with an inconsistent voice.
ReplyDeleteThat said, there is a distinctive historical trend in what is said. Earlier writings are distinctively darker -- the afterlife is non-existent, or it is a charnel house of shades, c.f., Ps 6:5, "For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol, who can give you praise?" Later writings reflect a more optimistic view, e.g., Ps 139:8, "If I ascend to heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there."
But we don't know what waits for us. We see dimly indeed.
Within the confines of our earthly existence, there is a societal incentive to titrate terror as a means of regulating behavior, and religions play a significant role in this. It is the experience of society that if you let people get away with small incivilities, they'll move on to greater incivilities. Thus, religion serves society by teaching the certainty of punishment, in the next world if not this one. On the other hand, too much punishment can create the fear that one's situation in the next world is irrecoverable, and so the law loses power to constrain in this world. Thus, by holding out hope for reconciliation even to the 11th hour, religion does society's work by saving it from the consequencees of a 12th hour of crime.
But how does God judge us? Perhaps the sudden-conversion view of religion -- that we'll be judged solely on our state of grace at the moment of death, which might come unexpectedly at any moment -- is how God judges. But I doubt it.
So let me suggest a different theology, albeit no less speculative than the traditional view: we live after death through the memory of God. God, who loves us, remembers us selectively, recalling the times when were faithful, and forgetting the times when we were not, cf., Jer 31:34, "No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more."
In this, the death-bed conversion of the capo gives God a little bit to remember of a soul that is otherwise largely lost; whereas the life of a St. Teresa offers quite a bit more. And the Hitlers and Stalins of the world provide essentially nothing of faithfulness for God to remember: it is their fate to be all but forgotten in death by the Lord of Life, and to suffer the hell comprised of separation from him.
thanks J & stu
ReplyDeletethe comments from both of you are helpful
i think that if i could be
a catholic in jh's benedictine world
i would have little or no hesitation
what i hear and see of catholicism
at benedictine monasteries
feels like the gospel to me
and more deeply so than what i
experience elsewhere
some of what i hear in rcia class
or read in the catechism does as well
(sound like the gospel)
but some of it does not
jh has a way
of interpreting it all
that makes it sound good
he can get away with that
having been born and raised catholic
for me though
any thing i might a posit
as a way of making my own peace
with catholic teachings
can be immediately shot down
by even the least educated catholic
who can simply claim
perhaps legitimately
"you don't understand"
stu i do like your speculative suggestions
about heaven, as long as we maintain an openness
to the creedal faith in the resurrection of the body
i think what troubles me
is not that i fear hell
but that i fear losing
my simple trust in God
my confidence that his love
is alwasy there for me
i am attracted to the historical
continuity of the catholic church
to the mass and to the eucharist
but i fear that some of the teachings,
if i don't happen to be surrounded
by catholics who interpret them as jh does,
will lead me into a neurotic legalism
where my anxieties about how to
negotiate my way through all the canon laws
will distract me from simply sitting
in the presence of God
and that it will distract me from
listening to God in those areas
where God might actually want to
bring about a conversion in my life
sally,
ReplyDeletestu i do like your speculative suggestions
about heaven, as long as we maintain an openness
to the creedal faith in the resurrection of the body
I'm delighted that they resonated. I don't have a theological objection to the notion of a bodily resurrection, although I tend to see this creedal statement in context as an emphatic rejection of docetism rather than as an affirmative statement about the nature of the afterlife.
But I think my thoughts about the memory of God are relevant here, too. If I am to be bodily resurrected, which body will I have? Can I put in a request for my 19 year old body? But might that not be confusing if I were also to run into loved ones, like my mother, with her 19 year old body? Saints above, or Oedipus below! My resolution is to conjecture that we would be remembered at different ages, and so I'd expect a bodily resurrection (for how else would it be experienced?) superimposed at a variety of ages; and in those memories where both my mother and I were present, our ages would be in the same relationship as they've been in life.
To call this speculative is an understatement! But I haven't found serious flaw yet. :-)
i think what troubles me
is not that i fear hell
but that i fear losing
my simple trust in God
my confidence that his love
is alwasy there for me
i am attracted to the historical
continuity of the catholic church
to the mass and to the eucharist
but i fear that some of the teachings,
if i don't happen to be surrounded
by catholics who interpret them as jh does,
will lead me into a neurotic legalism
where my anxieties about how to
negotiate my way through all the canon laws
will distract me from simply sitting
in the presence of God
I'm loathe to criticize the RCC on jh's blog, but I do believe that the current RCC is schizophrenic: it believes itself to be universal, and the Christian church; while at the same time, it practices sectional policies and sectional habits of thought more suited to a schismatic confession than to the mother church. As regards universality, this is something that jh tried to explain, but I finally came to understand only through Bonhoeffer. This is not jh's failing, but mine. Even so, I understand the Catholic claim of universality as something positive, and not mere ecclesiastical imperalism. And I live in the hope that if the RCC figures out how to live into its theological self-understanding, it might just find that self-understanding realized.
Let me just suggest that while the sometimes legalism of the contemporary RCC might lead you to neuroses, you are not obligated to follow. If jh has accepted the role of spiritual mentor, this role does not necessarily end if you were to join. That would set up the wrong incentives! I'd confirm this assumption, and then be confident that his wise and deep understanding of the faith would provide you the necessary counterbalance to the occasional shallow legalism.
thanks stu
ReplyDeletei do like your continued reflection
on living in God's memory
and your other comments as well
it has occurred to me before
and i will finally mention it now
that you might enjoy
and would certainly be a wonderful contributor
to the Collegeville Institute
for Ecumenical and Cultural Studies
at St. John's University in Minnesota
They have a resident scholar program at which faculty may spend one or two semesters of their sabbatical. I spent one semester of my previous sabbatical there in 2006, which is how I met Br. John (jh). I have also been accepted back there for my next sabbatical in Spring 2013, though I am still waiting to hear from another fellowship to which I applied and to discern which is the better course for my sabbatical this time. Anyway, if you have an interest you could google the Collegeville Institute. Many well known Christian writers have spent time there. Kathleen Norris and Henri Nouwen are the two that come to my mind at the moment. The interactions between the 10-12 scholars from different Christian backgrounds was really stimulating and educational for me.
"Legalism"
ReplyDeleteInteresting point, S. Stu's the theologian here (or jh), not I--but Ive heard other protestants say that about catholicism. In theory, RC tradition does value works (and ..tradition, scholarship, Aquinas, et al) and thus is not "sola fide." In theory that seems to be a advantage for the RCC--I for one don't believe the greek and roman classics should be tossed on a bonfire (as..did Luther, and a fortiori modern fundamentalists). In reality that often becomes an insistence on dogma (hardly different than jews or muslims). But the sola fide tradition has its own issues---"enthusiasm" as the Founders called it (David Koreshism, or the LDS in more extreme forms). Anecdotally speaking the evangelicals seem quite nuttier not to say more aggressive (klan-like) than the catholics. IMO, we're probably better off--and saner-- with Padre McMurphy than Preacher Billy Bob, or his...rabbinical pals (tho not to say one should have blind faith in either).
Hi J
ReplyDeleteObviously, I'm not a theologian either. I'll have to think more about your words. I wasn't intending to revert to sola fide nor to dismiss the concept of sola fide. I was merely expressing and trying (without complete success) to understand what it was about my most recent rcia class that put me into a state of mind in which it was difficult to pray. "Legalism" was the word I came up with to express my frustration. I'm not sure that it has anything to do with faith vs. works. It's more that preoccupation with church rules seemed to be interfering with hearing and putting into practice God's word in my life.
In my experience there is also a certain legalism that can crop up in evangelical churches. It may be that some of my reaction to the rcia class was in part linked to my past experience in the evangelical church.
No one actually criticized or said anything at all about my own mass attendance. What bothered me was more the fact that I was being taught a rule about mass attendance that I perceived (probably incorrectly) was supposed to replace the role of the Holy Spirit in my life.
I will say that the portion of the catechism that defines mortal sin does so beautifully, defining it in terms of things that block the flow of charity in our lives. I think if I had stopped reading there I would have felt ok about trusting the Holy Spirit to guide me in discerning when charity encourages my presence at Sunday mass versus when it encourages my presence with my local Presbyterian congregation.
It was a later section, which explicitly defines missing Sunday mass (except in case of illness etc) as mortal sin, that fueled my neurosis. To be fair, it may well have been subconscious memories of evangelical literalism in my past that colored my reading of this later part of the catechism, making me fret that others would use this language in the catechism against me (as evangelicals do sometimes use the Bible against each other), causing me to stop trusting my ability to hear and to follow God.
Not that my ability to do so is perfect or even well developed, but the emphasis on rules, sends the message to me that it is dangerous to try to develop that ability and that I should instead just listen to what the church tells me to do and do it. (Echoing my memory of evangelical teaching, just replacing the word "Bible" with "Church").
I suppose I should also take into consideration that last week's rcia teacher was a college-aged young man who is the parish's youth minister and thus is used to teaching teenagers rather than more mature adults.
sally,
ReplyDeleteLet me describe the Lutheran approach to your conundrum, which is essentially the theological issue that lead to the Lutheran-Catholic split. This is not intended as an argument that you should become Lutheran instead of Catholic. You should follow God's call where it leads you. This is intended only as a support.
Luther believed that the mortal sin was inevitable. We will all face the judgment day deserving death. But that's not the judgment we expect. Scripture teaches that faith will be reckoned as righteousness, cf. 1 Mac 2:52, and essentially all of Romans, but especially Rom 1:17 and 4:13. We are saved by faith through grace, Lutherans, Catholics, and Baptists alike. We are simply incapable of earning our salvation through our own merits. We all need God's grace. Your shield against the terror that your own sin will condemn you is faith that God will keep his promises to you.
You sound nearly like Hagee, or Rev. Billy Bob, Dr. Stu. Merit counts. Actions count. Even..ethics counts. One assumes...the Deity is rational. . Or I do. Jefferson over Rev Hagee (and..Roody Giuliani catholics, for that matter)).
ReplyDeleteThe idea that missing a Mass is a mortal sin...that's the right-wing catholic dogma creeping in (or legalism as they say). Nearly as bad as the baptist Billy Bobs . Maybe..some Boodha, and some Christ when needed ? Namaste.
Maybe I should worry about the fate of my immortal soul, but I don't think that is what is actually bothering me. Rightly or wrongly I seem to trust that God will judge me with mercy. I think it is the judgement of other people that I fear. Perhaps I fear that they will interpret my trust in God as pride and try to disabuse me of my pride; that they will be intent in finding some fault in my relationship with God so that they can bring me to my knees so that they can then be the ones to offer me back God's mercy after having taken it away from me. This is the sort of imaginary scenario that goes on in my head.
ReplyDeleteThe buddhist teachings do help a little. Thanks J. They are hard to practice at a time like this, but I guess that's the whole point--to learn little by little that I don't have to bring the dialog in my head to a conclusion, that I can just let it go. And let it go again when I find I have picked it up again. And let it go again ...
I like that buddhism it not judgmental. The teaching is just that when you notice you are doing something self-destructive or hurtful to others you refrain, if you can. And if you can't refrain, you try to at least be aware of what you are doing; aware of its impact on others and on one's self; you try to remain present to the discomfort of that awareness; and you trust that by practicing this way, your ability to refrain from hurtful actions or uncharitable thoughts will grow. No matter how many times you find yourself stuck in habitual patterns, the instruction is to simply notice that fact without judgement and to refrain to the extent that you can. Not only are to not judge ourselves for our failures; when we notice we are "doing it again", we are instructed to take joy in the fact that we can see this, because the recognition of what we are doing is the first necessary step toward healing.
This is my way of following Christ. I don't often use the word "sin", but I think I have an awareness of my own capacity for evil and selfishness and my need for help in order to be saved from these tendencies.
In this regard I do find liturgical prayer and the mass helpful. Not only do they provide a structure and atmosphere that is supportive of meditation, but they provide the hope that there is help that can come from beyond myself and even from beyond other people.
My appreciation of the mass has grown recently. It has become for me an opportunity to meditate on the mystery of what it means for God to be with us. That our humanity is present in the bread and wine that are transformed into Christ's body and blood offers me tremendous hope, whether or not I am permitted to actually ingest that transformed host. Until that day, I trust in Christ's ability to act from afar, as he did for the centurion.
The priest that I talked to on Monday perceived grief rather than guilt in my tears, and I think he was right. He thought I was grieving over leaving the Presbyterian church behind. I expect that I will have to face that grief eventually if I continue on this path, but I think my current grief is or was over the loss of my way of deriving comfort from the eucharist. To have the eucharist reduced into something that can be described in legalistic language using terms like "mortal sin" and being "in a state of grace" feels like a desecration of something that had become sacred to me.
J,
ReplyDeleteYou sound nearly like Hagee, or Rev. Billy Bob, Dr. Stu.
I do not appreciate the comparisions, which are both invalid and insulting. This is ad hominem by projection.
Merit counts.
What is merit in this context? I think it's clear that the answer is faith, although I think a strong counterargument could be made for loved by God. Jesus did that whole hanging out with tax collectors and prostitutes thing for two reasons: (1) to demonstrate as clearly as possible that merit as society measures it does not count, and (2) because the tax collectors and prostitutes were as individuals beloved of God.
Actions count. Even..ethics counts.
Yes, but not in the way you think. We don't earn our way into heaven, because we can't. The rest of Luther's argument (which I omitted because it seems to be already fully internalized by sally) is to emphasize Luke 3:8, "Bear fruits worthy of repentance." OK, so your faith has saved you -- what kind of life are you called to live as a saved person?
One assumes...the Deity is rational.
We can make such assumptions, but they're dangerous. Is 55:8, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD."
Yet I believe it is more insightful to assume that the Lord is loving than rational.
sally,
ReplyDeleteMaybe I should worry about the fate of my immortal soul, but I don't think that is what is actually bothering me. Rightly or wrongly I seem to trust that God will judge me with mercy.
This is the right attitude.
I think it is the judgement of other people that I fear.
This is the wrong attitude. I understand that life is easier if you have the esteem and honor of your fellows, but that's a false goal in the context of living a life of faith. I certainly don't mean to imply that you should gratuitously offend your fellow man, nor indeed do I think it likely you will. But let your light, which is really the light that Christ has loaned to you, shine fully. If others judge that light, they're judging themselves.
This is my way of following Christ. I don't often use the word "sin", but I think I have an awareness of my own capacity for evil and selfishness and my need for help in order to be saved from these tendencies.
In this regard I do find liturgical prayer and the mass helpful. Not only do they provide a structure and atmosphere that is supportive of meditation, but they provide the hope that there is help that can come from beyond myself and even from beyond other people.
My appreciation of the mass has grown recently. It has become for me an opportunity to meditate on the mystery of what it means for God to be with us. That our humanity is present in the bread and wine that are transformed into Christ's body and blood offers me tremendous hope, whether or not I am permitted to actually ingest that transformed host.
This is wonderful. The churches of the radical reformation did themselves a disservice by deprecating the notion of sacrament, especially as regards baptism and communion.
Those who have struggled to have access to the Eucharist value it more than those for whom it has been a routine fixture of their lives. Very likely, Catholic adult education unconsciously follows the lead of Catholic youth education. For Catholic children, the Eucharist has always been there, and so it is common for them. So a goal of Catholic youth education must be to bring Catholic youth to appreciate what is exceptional and indeed miraculous in the Eucharist. Unfortunately, the Catholic church has found the stick of sin to be more effective than the carrot of grace in forming children. It is not so with adults.
You're motivated by the carrot: the Eucharist is such a blessing to you that of course you want to partake when possible, and you value it so that you don't let the routine frictions of everyday life impede you from receiving it on a regular basis. So don't fear the stick: it's intended for other folks.
To have the eucharist reduced into something that can be described in legalistic language using terms like "mortal sin" and being "in a state of grace" feels like a desecration of something that had become sacred to me.
If you understand the Eucharist as a gift, you understand it better than those who are motivated by legalism.
It wasn't meant to be insulting Stu, and not ad hominem. Your point is hardly different than a Hagee-like fundamentalist insisting on zealous faith and grace alone saving us--ergo, my point on enthusiasm. The faith vs works debate is rather trite and exhausting and one can find support for both views...(and for that matter Paul's epistles are not Christ's words. Luther even updated Paul's sola fide with "alone"). Ill trust in...Logos. ""At the Last Judgement, the Lord judges the sheep and the goats based on what they have done."" Mt 25:31-44--
ReplyDeleteAs the old Book of common prayer put it, "thought, word, and deed". Not just faith, and not just a ..Mass counter. Im not a buddhist, but in a sense (however weird many biblethumpers would find the..Dharma) that maxim's not so far from Gautama's point on..right living, speech, conduct, etc.
sally,
ReplyDeleteI'd like to note that I am grateful for your suggestion regarding the Collegeville Institute. This is not something that I can pursue at this moment, but it is something that I'm inclined to follow up on in a few years.
thanks stu
ReplyDeletefor all your comments
it is helpful to me
to hear your perspectives
thanks to all for this insightful and civil
ReplyDeleteconversation
i did not expect this when i started this blog
it is somehow more satisfying
than bewilderingsearch which
i may revive
sally has some great recent stuff over on
an earthling wonders
as long as we keep talking
there is community
cybercommunity
blogcommunity
watching waiting hoping expecting
maranatha
!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletei just reread this poem
ReplyDeletei'm surprised not one cmmentator has cmmented on the quality of the poem itself
i mean i read it right through and i was duly impressed
i thought to myself at least
not bad not bad
maybe i'm deluding myself
maybe this isn't god poetry
but i think it is
and i'm going to publish it on
another blog somewhere
write it on a cyber wall
and sumbit my intentions to ether
gasp
sigh
jh
good poetry
ReplyDeletenot god poetry
good god
!